Monday, January 28, 2008

What's an Evangelical to do with Mother of God?

Here's what one well-known and respected Baptist gives as an answer to that most troubling and divisive "topic" in RCC and Evangelical dialogue. It's well worth researching the links and perhaps passing along to our brothers and sisters in Christ in other faith communities.

Some of my own thoughts and musings on this "Topic" with scattered links:

Watching Sunday Night Live, this morning, (we record it every Sunday) while checking email and reading about the country in Africa (Lesotho) where my priest friend, Father Felix is from, I heard Fr. Groeschel mention something about Evangelicals and their surging interest in Mary, Mother of God. That drew my eyes upward immediately to the t.v. in our bedroom (such heathens we are!) and momentarily listened intently to this bit of news.

He mentioned a certain Dr. Timothy George, a prominent Evangelical who has an article in FIRST THINGS magazine, which piqued my curiosity more. I then went to GOOGLE, and found the article.(link below) I knew that Martin Luther had a reverence for Mary, and devotion to her as well as John Wesley and others, but either had forgotten or didn't know that Calvin also did. Amazing!

I'd appreciate any of your comments and how you as Catholics discuss our Lady with your Protestant friends, as this is a "sore spot" for most of my Evangelical friends with whom I try to talk to about her and my new found love and appreciation for her. Some of them either ignore me, refuse to talk about her, or just become quiet, with that proverbial "deer in the headlights" look, and we go on to something else or go on about our day...much to my chagrin.

Having been of the same mindset as my Evangelical/Protestant friends re: Mary, I understand where they're coming from, but now that I'm Catholic, it seems so rediculous to not care or offer the Mother of Jesus our LORD more than a passing nod at Christmas. Not that I'm mad at them, I love them, they're my friends in the truest sense of the word, but it seems now, so preposterous, that I had ever a "problem" with Mary at all! I didn't have a real aversion to her, or a real anti-Catholic hatred about their affection or possible "worship" of her, but I really didn't know what to think or where she belonged, necessarily, in my theology and Evangelical paradigm. Here is the article. And more on Dr. Timothy George.

I find this fascinating and "kudos" to this thoughtful man for his apparent logic regarding the woman who GOD CHOSE to be the Mother of Jesus. Won't it be amazing when all of us cross over the Tiber, either her or on the other side of death's threshold and see our Blessed Mother, Mary, waiting for us, taking us to her Son, as she still does here on earth, if we're open to her now. She's always pointed (and to this day still points) to her Son, to Christ, never to herself. She's the most humble of any soul ever created and I will be forever grateful to Her, for giving us Jesus and loving me so much as she called and prayed for me, her prodigal daughter, to come Home, to Rome.

This was and is just one of the many "the joke's on me" moments since my reversion/heart and soul conversion to Catholicism that occured in December, 2004. As Saint Augustine said upon conversion to Catholicism and the Church, (for which his mother, Saint Monica prayed for some 20-30 years for) "Too late have I loved thee." Well, that also applies to me regarding Mary, the Mother of God. "Too late have I loved thee, Mama!"

But what a comfort to have finally found out who you really, truly are, and how you love all of your children. Thank you, Mary for your love and your forgiveness of me, when in my ignorance and arrogance I tossed you aside and ignored the one even the Angel of the Lord called "Hail, FULL OF GRACE!" right there in the BIBLE! (the bible I read and took so literally except for the chapters such as John 6 and any word about Mary being "full of grace")... I simply glossed over and not knowing what to do about those verses, 'ignored' them...much like I ignored Mary, the Mother Jesus himself gave to us, the Church, by giving her to John, his LAST act before dying on the cross. Think about that for a while. The last thing Jesus did for us was leave us his mother! Even as a bible scholar or a most avid sola scriptura person, the BIBLE ALONE even says as much!~ Something to masticate, chew, gnaw and ponder in our hearts. She was Jesus first disciple...shouldn't we as Catholics and or Protestants give her more than a mere, and dare I say even at times, a "smug" nod?


the mother of this lot said...

I don't relly do theological arguments with non-Catholics, but if I did I suppose I'd mention that the Council of Nicea recognised Our Lady as the Mother of God in 431AD. Then I'd knock 'em dead with 'of course, John the Baptist's mother knew this 2000 years earlier...'How has this happened to me, that I am visited by the mother of my Lord...' (Lk 1:43)

That should do it!

Joyful Catholics said...

Mother of this lot...GREAT one! To think about Elizabeth calling Mary the Mother of her Lord/God is such "proof" but why are some so darned defiant? I need to keep my friends in prayer, and try to be patient with them, and take my frustrations to the Lord..and the Mother of my Lord! : )
She loves them where they are and I do too, but their arguments are really so incredibly illogical! Thanks for your comment! : )

Anonymous said...

Fabulous post...

Joyful Catholics said...

Thank you, Jackie. Bless you.

Marie said...

I always say when asked about Mary.

God the Father chose Mary, God the Son chose Mary and God The Holy Spirit chose Mary..who am I to argue with The Triune Spirit?

I never get a reply lol.

Peace to you:)


Tiber Jumper said...

I too have not had the opportunity to discuss Mary with Non-Catholics much lately. I tend to believe the Romish Receptive Aphasia kicks in so despite what we say, they hear something else.
Perhaps, only by her intercession does the heart soften towards her. It is so sad that the one woman who desires all to love her Son more than anything is so maligned by our separated brethren. Well, we were in that boat once and God changed our hearts so it's worth waiting and praying for.
Good post, God bless

Joyful Catholics said...

OH yes...I forgot about that RRA kicking in with some folk. It did with me too, way back when, so you're right in your assessment that it's definitely worth waiting and praying for. Who knows who was praying for 'me' to finally come to love Our Mama! But someone's prayers were indeed heard and I know now that I'd never want to go a day without acknowledging my Blessed Spiritual Mama! I call her Mama as did St Gerard. I find that so endearing!

Gregory Mathew Kuglin said...


Mary’s Assumption into Heaven?- 1 Cor 15: 20, 23; Jn 3:13; 14:6; 1 Tim 6:13-16; Rev 4:2, 11: Heb 9:27; Ps 4:8; 1 Jn 5:14-15; Jn 3:31; 4:25; Jn 6:37, 44-45, 65; 10:29-50; Gal 3:15; Ps 47:6-9;

Only pray to the LORD, not Mary or the “Saints”- Dan 2:17-18;
King David only prayed to the Lord God- Ps 42:8-11; and all psalms

-there’s only one who’s Eternal: Isa 57:15
-God isn’t glorified in Mary: 1 Pet 4:11; Isa 44:23; Isa 48:11
-Mary does not bring people to Jesus: 1 Cor 1:4-9; Isa 48:17; Jn 1:14-25

Mary exalted as mediatrix in RCC- 1 Tim 2:5; Jn 7:37; Heb 12:24; 1 Jn 2:1; Rom 5:1-2; Jn 13:3; Ps 148(:13); Isa 44:22-24; 45:21; 47:4; Heb 12:2; Jn 14:6; Ps 90:2; Ps 21:6; Gal 4:6; Lk 2:7; Lk 1:42; Rom 8:15; 1 Cor 1:2, 5, 30; 1 Jn 1:3; Gal 3:19; Ps 128; Ps 136:4; Amos 5:6-7; Isa 42:8; Ps 44:11

Mary’s not mother of God: Isa. 43:10; 41:4; Prov 16:4
She recognized herself as “the handmaid of the Lord” , then submitted herself to the word of God (and being Jewish, she would recognize what the Old Testament (Torah) as the word of God, not any of the extra tradition (teachings/practices) of the RCC -Lk 1:38

Mary, full of grace- Bible only says Jesus is full of grace- Jn 1:14
The beginning of the hail-mary is not even in the Bible (Lk 1:41-42).

Mary’s Immaculate Conception and sinlessness- Rom 5:12; 3:10, 23; Jn 2:1-5; Lk 2:22; Isa 40:25-26; Ps 53:2-3;

Mary’s nothing special- Mt 12:46-50; Lk 11:27-28; Heb 1:3; Isa 45:5-8, 12, 17-25;

Ps 9:2; Ps 38:15; Dan 2:19-23– Rejoice in Jesus the Lord, praise Him, the Most High.

In the beginning of the writing of John the Apostle, known as “Revelation”, Mary is not mentioned in the chain of command, giving no warning or foresight. And yet the RCC would have you believe that Mary is involved in the true grace of God, the LORD. That she is involved in God’s giving to us. On earth it is claimed by the RCC that she gives warnings and calls to repentance, but in the Holy Bible there can be found no such thing (Read Rev 1).

Mary’s not Co-redeemer- Isa 43:11-25; Acts 4:11; Lk 1:46-55; 1 Pet 1:18-21; Rom 3:21-26; Jn 14:6, 23; Rom 5:15-21; Col 1:14; Jer 44:15; 7:7-20 (all); Isa 47:4; Isa 48:17, 20; Isa 49:26; 52:9-10; Isa 60:16; Isa 63:16; 2 Cor 5:21; 1 Cor 1:30-31; Isa 42:8; Ps 46;

Its not Mary, but the LORD who helps us- Ps 121

The RCC teaches that the gifts of God go through Mary before being received by a believer. Yet the Bible says that with the Lord there is “no variableness, neither shadow of turning”. In Strong’s Concordance, ‘variableness’ is shown to mean “transmutation of phase or orbit” (3883). If the gifts of God ever went into Mary’s hands then to us, would that not be another “phase” (because Mary is a complete separate being from God)?

“Salvation belongeth unto the Lord: thy blessing is upon thy people.” – Ps 3:8 (Salvation comes from the Lord, not Mary)

Mary’s not ever-virgin- Mk 16:1; Gal 1:19; Mk 3:31-34; 6:3; 15:40, 47; 16:1; Mt 1:21-25; Mt 13:55-56; Jn 7:5-10;

Mary, Queen of Heaven- Ps 146:10; Col 2:1-10; 1 Cor 15:20-24; Jer 7:7-20; Ps 34; Ps 148:13; Col 2:1-10; 1 Cor 15:20-24; Jer 44:15;

Gifts of God come to us directly through Jesus, not Mary then to us- Eph 4:8

Jesus is all wisdom, not Mary- 1 Cor 1:24

Mary not only one blessed- Jude; Prov. 8:32-34; Mt 5:3-11; 5:24; Rev 1:1-3

Seek the LORD, not Mary or the Pope- Isaiah 51

Tradition is not equal with the authority of Scripture - Amos 2:4-16; Mk 7:3-9, 13; Col 2:6-10, 20-23; 1 Pet 1 :13-19; Jer 5:30-31; James 1:16-18; Rev 2:25; 1 Tim 1:3-4; 1 Cor 3:11; Gal 3:15; Prov 30:5-6; Gal 1:8; 2 Tim 6:12-14; Isa 43:12; Mt 15:3, 8-9; 2 Thes 2:15; 3:6; 2 Jn 6-11; Jude 3, 17; Eph 2:20; 2 Pet 3:1-2; Ezek 15:5; 1 Thes 4:1-2; Heb 2:1-4; Phil 3:16-19; 4:9; 2 Cor 1:13-14; Heb 3:14; 1 Jn 2:24; 1 Thes 5:21; James1:18; Isa 8:20; Jn 9:49-50; Ps 89:4; Ps 103:20; Ps 18:22; Prov 30:5; 2 Cor 1:19-20; 1 Cor 16:13; Lk 16:29; Ps 1; 1 Thes 3:8; 2 Tim 1:13; Titus 1:9; Heb 4:14; 10:23; Phil 1:27; 4:1; Rev 3:3, 11; 2 Cor 6:4-10; 2 Cor 13:5; 1 Jn 4:6; Heb 13:7-9; 2 Jn 6, 9-11; Rom 15:4; Jn 17:17; 1 Pet 1:24-25f; Ps 89:4; Ps 103:20; Ps 18:22; Prov 30:5; 2 Cor 1:19-20; 1 Cor 16:13; Lk 16:29; Ps 1; 1 Thes 3:8; 2 Tim 1:13; Titus 1:9; Heb 4:14; Heb 10:23; Phil 1:27; Phil 4:1; Rev 3:3, 11; 2 Cor 6:4-10; 13:5; 1 Jn 4:6; Heb 13:7-9; 2 Jn 6, 9-11; Rom 15:4; 1 Pet 1:24f; Prov 12:15; Ps 119; Ps 138:2-4; Jer 8:9; Jer 9:20-24; 1 Cor 10:11-12; Isa 31:1-3; Isa 34:16; 40:6-8; Ps 33; Ps 12; Heb 4:12-13; Jn 8:31-32; Isa 51:1-2; Isa 55:8-11; Amos 2:4-16; Jn 5:39-47; Acts 13:46-48; Jn 12:48; Jn 7:37-39; Ps 119; Ps 40:7-8; Ps 44:17-21; Ps 56; Ezek 6:3; Isa 5:13-14; Rev 3:6; Rev 22:18-21;
Ezek 34:17-19 (Because the RCC is building tradition constantly, it leaves an increasingly anti-gospel church for the future); Rev 22:6-7

St. Peter was an “it is written” man/apologist/believer, because Jesus the Messiah was the advocate of “it is written”. “Because it is written”- 1 Peter 1:16.
“Then saith Jesus unto him, get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve” – Mt 4:10

“One thing is needful”; the hearing of the word- Lk 10:38-42

Jesus says, “Blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book” (Rev 22:6-7). He is clearly talking about the Holy Bible, from which He speaks. There is no blessing promised by the King, the Annointed One of God, for those who heed any tradition apart from the Bible.

Samuel knew the Jewish tradition, but not the word, and without it he didn’t know the LORD- 1 Sam 3:7
It is by the word of the LORD that He is revealed- 1 Sam 3:21.

Jer 7:29-31 - That which is not commanded by the LORD should not be undertaken as though it was.

How can Roman Catholic Tradition/Doctrine be equal in authority to Scripture, when they clearly are contradictory?

Joyful Catholics said...

Welcome Gregory...Glad you stopped by my blog. With all due respect, however, I have to disagree with you. The Catholic Church is the Church Jesus established. It claims to be the ONE TRUE Church, with the fullness of Truth. I didn't make the claim, the CC did/does. Now either it's a diabolical cult, and I'm a lost soul, or it's the truth and you should research more thoroughly before you send all of these scriptures. The bible didn't fall from the sky into your hands. It was "brought to you by the CC." In other words, the CC was the Church who gave you your bible, it is the Church which put the bible together, the canon of scripture which you no doubt love and respect, CAME to be, by the work of the Catholic Church. Now you can disagree, but it doesn't change the truth. Your church or fellowship wasn't around 2000 years ago, as was the CC. Do some reading, and remember, "to go deep in history is to cease to be Prostestant." John Henry Cardinal Newman...convert to the CC from Aglicanism. Read his writings. Read the Catechism of the CC and see for yourself...there's nothing contradictory with scripture anywhere to be found in the Catechism or the "Doctrine of Tradtion" of the CC. You are sorely misguided, as I once was. I thought I knew all there was to know about the CC and left the Church for 26 years, going to 3 different Evangelical, Pentecostal, and fundamentalist fellowships. THEY ALL CONTRADICTED each other in their doctrines!!! TOO confusing in that world for me now. ONE CHURCH, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE MIND, ONE. Your argument might be better taken up with the Angel of the Lord who said "Hail, Full of Grace" in the gospel of St. Luke long before I ever said it. I don't worship Mary, but unlike some, I have nothing against the Mother of my Lord, for Jesus honored her and gave her genuine respect as a good Jewish son, obeying the 10 Commandments. HONOR THY Father and Mother. Hail is a sign of respect, which the Angel of the Lord, had for her, the Mother of Christ. This is a most tedious argument, again with all due respect. I've lived the Evangelical life for years and years. It has so many contradictions it's not even funny. Jim Jones was a bible-believing man, and with only the Scripture as "his authority" he went off the rails and his little church of 500 souls, ended up bloated and dead in the tropics all thinking they were "right." Don't toss Scriptures around without at least ackowleging that you'd not even have a bible to call your own if it wasn't for the Catholic Church. Go to and find some answers about the Catholic faith from a more knowledgable soul than I can give you here. There are Scriptures and Scriptural evidence to counter every one of the ones you typed here. God be with you and keep you and smile upon you. I do thank you for coming by and taking the time to comment. I appreciate it, what your trying to do. I used to believe the same. I've now been awakened and will from this day forward do my best to thwart the misinformation being spread about the Church Jesus built. Like it or not, brother, it IS the Cathlolic Church. I didn't like it for nearly 30 years....funny how God can change a soul's misguided beliefs when one is, by His grace, "open" to RECONnecting to the TRUTH...about Him and HIS CHURCH. Blessings~ susie

Joyful Catholics said...

Greg, pray tell, what did Jesus mean when he said, "This is my Body" in the gospel of St John chapter six?

How do you twist that one to suit your agenda, theology, fancy? I mean, He NEVER meant it as a symbol, or those of his followers would not have left him for his "hard saying."

Please, do tell me how you interpret that and make it mean what Jesus himself never said?

Your blog is very mean spirited. I am saddened that you're so full of what you deem, "righteous anger." Very sad, Greg. You're sadly mistaken and I feel sorry for you.

Gregory Mathew Kuglin said...

Dear Susie,

Thank you for posting my comment, and for your reply.
After meeting another former Catholic like myself, he recommended that I get the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This way, I could compare and study the two pillars of faith. Of course pillars should be the same, so that they work together, and hold up the building at the right height and angle.
You're absolutely correct about the obvious contradictions of so called 'evangelical' churches of today. I've done the same as you, hopping from chruch to church, doctrine to doctrine, and everything else different and 'true' that they give you. I no longer go to a 'church'. I havent been in a while. And it's for that very reason- contradictions.
I hope that Im not coming off as some smug little expletive. I just came across your blog, and felt that you should be aware of these verses, and yes, what the Catholic Church actually says too. Dont take my word for it. Take the time to read over these verses, think about them, pray about them.
Please read these verses for yourself. Some are obviously varied from what the CC teaches. If Jesus gave the Bible to the RCC, and the RCC gave us the Bible, then why do they disagree on so many points?
Fortunately, the Bible clarifies itself. When something is read in it, you are kept within boundaries of interpretation based on what it's said before (or what you've read before). An important verse to look at to better understand this "hard saying" (Jn 6:60) is what Jesus said moments after telling his disciples to eat his flesh and blood (which would be going against a declaration of God in the Old Testament. Read Ezekiel 35:6-9; Leviticus 17:10-14). So here we see what it cannot be. He could not be talking about eating and drinking his real flesh and blood, or anything transubstantiated into it, because that is against God's Law. So what does He mean? He tells us verses later what really gives life, what is really His flesh and blood.
"It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn 6:63). Take in Jesus' words.

Hidden One said...

Gregory, I am wondering: if I prooftexted with more verses than you did in your first response (a prodigious amount indeed,) could I claim victory? No? Just making sure. All you ensure by posting so many references is that they won't be read.

"This way, I could compare and study the two pillars of faith."

There are two distinct and important errors in this statement, so I thought I'd highlight them.

1. There are 3 pillars of the Catholic faith.
2. The catechism of the Catholic Church isn't one of them.

Given that the three pillars of the catholic Church (and thus, of her faith) are the Magisterium, Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture, I have two important questions for you.

1. Did the Christians of, say, the first two centuries of Christiantiy agree with your current positions? (Because if they were drastically different and/or opposing, it would seem to be obvious that the students of the Apostles themselves would be right and you would be wrong) and
2. did those early Christians believe in the principles of Sola Scriptura which you seem to hold to?

Sincerely in Christ,
Hidden One

Gregory Mathew Kuglin said...

Thanks for talking with me Hidden One.
All that I ensure by posting a lot of references to Bible verses is that they are out there for people to read. Its up to others whether or not they actually pick up The Book and check them out.
You're absolutely right about the 3 pillars. I oversimplified, and didn't explain myself clearly. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not in itself a pillar, but it is the most comprehensive summary of all that is Catholic Sacred Tradition (including what it dictates concerning the Magisterium). I appreciate you correcting me.

In answer to your two questions:
1) Yes. My current positions are based on/in the same scriptures that the early church had.

2) Yes.

“And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures”(Acts 17:2).

“And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apolos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another” (1 Corinthians 4:6).

“Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things most surely believed among us, even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write them unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, that thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed” (Luke 1:1-4).

Matthew 4:1-1;

“And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

Luke 10:26;

“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thesalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:10-12).

Mark 12:24; John 5:39; Matthew 26:54;

“For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, showing by the Scriptures that Jesus was Christ” (Acts 18:28).

1 John 2:1; 1 Timothy 3:13-15;

For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope” (Romans 15:3-4).

John 20:30-31

For more Bible verses that highlight the important place of Scripture, please see “Tradition is not equal with the authority of Scripture” and the list of verses that follow in one of my above comments. These will really help clarify the position of the Lord and the early church on Sola Scriptura.

Thanks for reading,

Lindsey said...

Dear Susie,

I think the reason why some of your friends find talking about the RCC Mary a sore spot is because it doesn’t sit right with them- there are two many points of conflict between biblical Christian principals and the high honour to given to Mary. In most evangelical churches, people are encouraged to read the Bible for themselves, while the RCC, under the direction of the Pope, discourages Bible reading, and has anathematized anyone who believes biblically sound doctrine, and professes it (Protestants and Catholics alike)- see the First Vatican Council.
I posted these Bible verses here and on my blog because evidence contrary to RCC doctrine has been kept from people, especially those in the Roman church, for too long.

Jeremiah 44:15-
Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,

44:16 [As for] the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.

44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for [then] had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all [things], and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

44:19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

44:20 Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him [that] answer, saying,

44:21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it [not] into his mind? 44:22 So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, [and] because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

44:23 Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.

44:24 Moreover Jeremiah said unto all the people, and to all the women, Hear the word of the LORD, all Judah that [are] in the land of Egypt:

44:25 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

44:26 Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.

44:27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that [are] in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.

44:28 Yet a small number that escape the sword shall return out of the land of Egypt into the land of Judah, and all the remnant of Judah, that are gone into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, shall know whose words shall stand, mine, or theirs.

44:29 And this [shall be] a sign unto you, saith the LORD, that I will punish you in this place, that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:

44:30 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give Pharaohhophra king of Egypt into the hand of his enemies, and into the hand of them that seek his life; as I gave Zedekiah king of Judah into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, his enemy, and that sought his life.

Thanks, and may the Lord truly bless you.

Joyful Catholics said...

So, Lindsey an or Greg, whoever it is that wrote this, if I understand you correctly, what you're saying (in different words of course) is this: I'm screwed. The entire RCC is the whore of Babylon? Oh well. Time will tell.

The RCC I came back to doesn't discourage me from reading the bible and studying it at all. However, it should be read and studied 'with' and 'under' the higher GOD GIVEN Authority, instituted by Christ, the Magisterium, to interpret what is not easily understood. Sacred Tradtion and the bible is how this is done btw. As on the road to Emmaus when they said: "How can we know unless someone teaches us?" Even Philip and Andrew weren't stupid enough to believe they could interpret everything themselves, solely alone, without a 'guide!'

You see, I wouldn't want to end up in a "Jim Jones" or "David Koresh" type of a so-called "biblically-based bible- believing 'church' where the bible is "taught" by just a mere man's or woman's opinion. Who taught these men and or women anyway? Who ordained them?

Keep praying for me, though, maybe one day I'll "see the light" and come home to the real, one "church" which is what? Yours? What's your denom btw? Or is it a Non-denom you attend? Or an Inter-denom? That must mean it took 2000 years, give or take 10 or 20, to "get it right" and back to how it was before the RCC went off the rails and became corrupt?

Your telling me that the Church Jesus built himself he couldn't keep the gates of hell from prevailing against after all? Thanks but no thanks.

To what 'church' do you belong? How old is your 'church?' The RCC goes back to the first apostles. It is the ONLY one that can be traced back to the original 'hand-picked' disciples (all sinners by the way) of Christ himself. The 12 HE chose, not anyone else.

You don't leave Peter, who repented of his sins, because of Judas, (the bad priest) who didn't. I suggest you take a peek at
You are sorely misguided and misinformed and yet you don't have to be. That is what is so sad.

Are you so "right" about everything that you won't even truly dig for the Truth? Catholics who know it can help you if you're only open. Or do you prefer to keep trying to tell me what's wrong with the RCC and to convince me to come home to the one true church which is where/what? One of them out there among the 33,000 has to be the "right one." I can't help but think this whole dialogue is but bludgeoning a dead horse and it's getting old real fast.

With all due respect, you aren't going to change my mind about the RCC, not one whit. The Church Jesus founded and built on Peter is the RCC and has been for 2000 years. You want me to read your copious "laundry list" of verses, most of which are taken out of context, but you won't check out the websites I give you? Thanks, but no thanks.

It is sad that the MOTHER OF OUR LORD, whom the ANGEL honored with these words: "Hail, Full of Grace" doesn't "sit well" with my Protestant and Evangelical friends. You're darn tootin! It's very sad indeed! Will they say something like this when they die and see the Mary, the Mother of God? "Hey, sorry Mar, but would you just get out of the way and let me get up close Jesus? He's my personal Lord and Savior, ya know, cuz I was saved back in 1973!"

Even the ANGEL OF THE LORD bowed to her and honored this Blessed Virgin, Mary, calling her, FULL OF GRACE! He didn't even say Mary! But maybe he got it wrong, too, eh?

However, maybe this Angel of the Lord just wasn't the "sharpest knife" in heaven's knife drawer? Not the "brightest halo" in the halo box? Imagine the Angel of the Lord bowing to a mere woman! He said "Hail Full of Grace" to a created being - who's apparently not anything special!?? She just happened to carry the Lord we worship, Jesus, the Son of God, God incarnate, The WORD made flesh, the God of the universe inside her body that's all! Sheesh! Perhaps they should now take a look and see just how much a part she does play in our salvation. She is our Mediatrix. If there is only "one mediator between God and man, then don't ask ONE of your friends to ever pray for you again! Go straight to God, and don't bother to ask a friend to pray, because that makes them a "mediator does it not!" I pray to Mary, and the Saints in Heaven for they are not dead, but alive and more alive than they were here on earth and any friend of Jesus is a friend of mine! He's delighted when we pray to his friends, for they're our big brothers and sisters in THE FAITH! They died for the Eucharist long before the New Testament was EVER written! Think about that...ponder that one for a while! Read the Early Church Father and maybe visit

You're treading on dangerous turf, you really are. I will pray for your soul at Good Friday service in about an hour. And I won't forget you in my prayers at Mass...which is Heaven bending to kiss earth! It's glorious! Read and learn the Truth. Be brave. Question your faulty theology. Get some wisdom before spouting anymore heresy!

Good day.